More on Burma

The news is getting worse. Apart from people being killed we hear of mass arrests of the monks who have been leading the protests. It is hard to see a way forward from here. If Brown and Bush mean what they say it would be good to see them lay out the moves they will make.

So how about economic sanctions on those countries that do not take economic sanctions themselves against Burma. Even if this not enough to convince China it should help with those Asean countries like Singapore, Indonesia and Thailand.

If there is again an escape into the jungle by protesters, let's have a promise of aid, including arms, and asylum for those asking for it.

Crocodile Tears for Burma

So Gordon Brown and George Bush both show their compassionate side in our next door neighbour's problems. Funny that the one country where regime change would be welcomed by all sectors of society except the military is not the one that gets invaded. Maybe the Burmese Unical oilfields are too small.

Unless some of the younger army officers decide that their prospects are better under a democratic government there will be real tears soon. The Burmese generals have never been slow to kill their own people.

Even if the Chinese will not listen, Britain, America and the EU could lean on the governments of India, Thailand and Singapore and make sure the generals have nowhere to spend or keep their money. Let's also have some Western financing for the Karens and the student groups to keep on fighting.

Klong Saen Saeb History

I came across another BMA history poster, this time for Klong Saen Saeb. These are rather good although this one is harder to understand than the others. Click on the picture at the bottom to see the original and below is my copy.

Khlong (canal) Saen Saep is a canal that has been extended from Khlong Mahanak flows to the eastern side of bangkok, and passes through the following district's area of Vadhana, Suan Luang, Bang Kapi, Bueng Kum, Khanna Yao, Min Buri, Khlong Sam Wa, Nong Chok, Amphoe Bang Nam Priao, and flows into the Bang Pakong River in Chachoengsao Province. The canal is devided into 2 parts; the Khlong Saen Saep Tai (South) that starts from Khlong Mahanak at Wat Borommaniwat up till Hua Mak, Khlong Tan, and Khlong SaenSaep Neua (North) starts from Hua Mak passes through the end reach of Khlong Samsen (Khlong Tan), then passes through Bang Khanak and flows into the Bang Pakong River. There is no evidence of when Khlong Saen Saep (South) was dug but it is estimated that it was made during the time period after Khlong Mahanak was dug during the reign of King Rama I and before the digging of the end reach of Khlong Saen Saep (some areas ity is called Khlong Bang Khanak) which was during the reign of King Rama III in 1837. This was the time that Thailand was at war with Cambodia and Vietnam. During that time sending of provisions and food was slow and not prompt. Therefore King Rama III graciously ordered Phraya Sri Phiphat (That Bunnak) - later was Somdet Chao Phraya Borrommahaphichai Yat, to lead Chinese workers in digging up the khlong. The khlong started from Hua Mak up till Bang Khanak, a total length of 53.519 Kilometres, and had a width of 6 wa and a depth of 4 sork and took altogether 3 years to be completed. The total amount was 96,000 Baht. this khlong has great importance to the economy as well because it connects the Chao Phraya River to the Bang Pakong River and reduces the distance between Prachin Buri, Chachoengsao and Rattanakosin. H.M. King Rama V ordered that the top of the khlong be widened from 6 wa to 9 wa and an extra 6 sork was also added to each side of the khlong.

The Thai measurements in the above piece work out as follows. A Wa is about 2 metres which is fingertip to fingertip with spread arms. A Sork is from the elbow to fingertip, a bit less than half a metre.

Sunday's Walk

I printed satellite pictures of two possible walks before getting in the truck. I used neither as I stopped before getting to them because it looked interesing at another point. I accessed Klong Saen Saeb via a short piece of footpath along Klong Lo Lae. This is closer to Minburi than Bangkapi in Bangkok and to the east of the Bangkok Ringroad. In the map below the red dots show the walk.

The main canal is wider than our local Klong Prawet Burirom at least as far as the watergate just before Minburi. After that it does narrow by about a half. I walked east but the path run out before the watergate. Turned and went as far west as the path on the southern bank goes. This was opposite a mosque and there was a bit more footpath on that bank but now way of getting there easily. Not much to report on this walk as it was quiet and not many people were about.

Looking east towards the watergate from the eastern end of the footpath

Looking west towards the ring road from the western end of the footpath

After I drove to the other side of the watergate and parked at Wat Bumpennua. The bridge crossing the canal is unusual and very Chinese looking.

Bridge over the Klong Saen Saeb at Wat Bumpennua

Saturday's Football

A good result on Saturday, 2-0 against Leicester, puts Charlton into second place in league. If they keep on at this rate we should be promoted back to the Premier with ease. Having said this, we still have to play the other better clubs in the division like West Brom, Coventry and Watford and it's still a long way to go.

New Local Walk

I have been meaning to do this walk for a while. It's close to where I live so no driving. All up I was back home in just over an hour. I had been putting it off because it's not much of a canal, more just a wide ditch and it has pathways only in sections.

Anyway in the map below you can see it shown in blue dots. I had walked as far as I could on the southern end before and then realized, after I crossed under the motorway, that I had also walked the last couple of hundred meters on the northern end before. About the most interesting thing on this walk was having to take my shoes off to paddle through two flooded sections. The night-time rains have been heavy this last week. I did notice some more traditional style Thai houses by the side of this canal. There are far more of these than I would have thought a year ago.

More Football

Good to wake up this morning and find from the BBC site that Charlton beat Norwich 2-0 in the Tuesday night game. We are now third in the table but this might be a bit flattering. Let's hope this is "doing well while playing badly" and that we haven't seen the best yet. This year they really should be the "Chelsea" of the division with the most expensive squad.

Yesterday and today still busy. Did get out late morning and have my often used walk, 50 minutes along Klong Banma from the top of my street. Still wondering about that new watergate. I will add a picture below. There are now two large pumps on the lake side of the gate and a watchman living in a small shelter.

Bad Monday

Like most Mondays, not a great day. Didn't get out but did get half hour on the exercise bike. I must try and do something every day. Rain was heavy last night which caused some localized flooded roads in Bangkok. Good came of this as I had two grand-nephews here as their school was closed. It brings the average age down a bit anyway.

I'm thinking about a drive up north sometime this or next month. We have a free Chiang Mai hotel voucher to use and although flights are cheaper than driving I do like the independence of a vehicle. Wait and see how am I am in a couple of weeks.

Yesterday's Football

Yet again my team, Charlton, gave the opposition, Colchester, a two goal lead. Yet again they pulled back and this game ended 2 - 2. Hope they get it sorted out soon. Of course our ex-striker Kevin Lisbie, who couldn't score for us over many years, scored against us. It's always the way. I saw the crowd figure of 5800 on one web site last night. Poor Colchester will not get much further unless they can build up a bigger following than that.

Klong Lam Sali Walk

Although only a couple of kilometres away today's walk was totally different and far more upbeat than yesterday's. The community by the mosque on Klong Lam Sali where Krungthep Kritha Road crosses has been there a fair amount of time. With well built foot bridges and small shops on the side it was almost like Venice.

I walked up and down this canal, to and from the railway line and east until the footpath stopped at the road opposite the Krungthep Kritha Golf Course. About 5 kilometres in total. I will mark this area on a map soon as I can find some more walks heading north towards Klong Saen Saeb from here.

Below was a very fashionable Moslem lady in a light purple trouser suit. I couldn't catch up to get a closer photo.

Needed badly to get some exercise. Now when I don't walk off some inches from around my stomach it physically hurts so I have an extra incentive, walk or pain-killers. I walked the rest of Klong Banma so I know the entire lenth from Klong Prawet Burirom to Klong Saen Saeb is walkable except for the first 200 meters at the southern end. The red dots show today's walk and the blue dots previous walks.

This part of Klong Banma doesn't have much going for it. No old communities on it, just more recent ones. There are new (less than 30 years old) housing estates mainly walled off from the klong and more recent very basic homes of rural migrants. Neither of these groups would produce votes for city hall if the upkeep of the canal footpaths were better. The housing estates because they don't use the canal and the migrants because they can't vote in Bangkok. Hence the footpaths are pretty bad. (I think if I were in city hall I would try and sign up all the rural migrants onto the voting list. Tammany Hall style for sure.)

I had to backtrack two times, the first one adding a good 15 minutes to the walk, because of the footpath condition. Below a section has dropped into the water.

Below the footpath just runs out before the bridge. Usually you find some sort of access to the bank but here I had to backup a hundred meters and finda path on land.

It was a rather depressing walk until I came upon this water feature and sala at the back of an apartment house. The water bubbles down the rocks to the two imitation storks below. They have made a fine back garden for the apartment dwellers here.

History of two klongs

The two Bangkok Metropolitan Authority (BMA) posters below give the history of both Klong Prawet Burirom and Klong Phrakanong in both Thai and English. I have printed out the English part. Don't worry about the spelling differences. See my earlier post today.

BMA Klong Phrakanong Poster

Above - Klong Phrakanong Poster

'Originally it was a natural canal (Khlong) that meandered and connected Khlong Nong Bon to the Chao Phraya River. the approximate length was around 10 kilometres. Khlong (Canal) Phra Khanong was dug deeper in 1837 by Somdet Phra Nang Klao, King Rama III, he graciously ordered Phraya Sri Phiphat (That Bunnak) - later was Somdet Chao Phraya Borommahaphichai Yat, to carry out the digging, so as to improve the communications as well. Chinese labourers were hired and the work completed in 1840. Consequently, King Rama V graciously ordered to dig up Khlong Phra Khanong to be extended and allow it to be connected to Klong Dan that eventually flow out into Bang Pakong River in Chachoengsao province, and this new canal was named Klong Prawet Burirom. The total capital used to dig up the khlong came from three sources. The first source was from King Rama V who donated money from the royal treasury, which amounted to approximately 80,000 Baht and was used to pay the Chinese labourers. The second source was actually Nuea Fin (opium) that was used as a mean to pay the wages. The third source of fund was from the people. The King granted permission to the people to collect and pay part of the cost of the Khlong. The total amount collected was 32,752 Baht. It was the first khlong that King Rama V allowed the people to join in and help pay the cost. The benefits that were granted back to the people who joint in and paid was that they were allowed to reserve land on both sides of the khlong, in the designated areas and according to the amount they paid up. For the amount ranging from 2 Salueng up to 1.5 Baht, which was the higher rate, these people were allowed to reserve land at the top of the khlong. As the rate decreased the area that could be reserved would be further down the khlong, till the area of Chachoengsao province.'

BMA Klong Prawet Burirom Poster

Above - Klong Prawet Burirom Poster

'After the canal construction bill being promulgated in 1877, King Rama V had ordered to dig the extension part of Phra Khanong Canal to join Khlong Dan and link with Bang Pakong River of Chachoengsao province. The dug canal was called Khlong Prawet Burirom. Besides the canal also was dug 4 extended branches, totalling a distance of 46 kilometers. Phraya Ratchaphonlakhan was appointed as chief of the project while Chao Phraya Surawong Waiyawat was the project director. The excavation work took 3 years to finish. The man-made canal could not only help facilitation water transportation between Nakhon Khuean Khan (Samak Prakan province nowadays) and Chachoengsao Province to a great extent, but also opening new cultivation areas along both sides of the canal.'

Klong Ban Ma or Klong Banma

I'm getting very slow. I just realized that the small canal I walked down to get to Klong Saen Saeb has the same name as the klong that is just up the road from me. My excuse is age and the differences in English spellings of Thai names. I have been referring to my local canal as Banma and this was Ban Ma. I should have picked that up straight away though. Ban Ma or Banma though is quite complicated route with many canals joining, right-angles and so on. This does give me a challenge though, a walk from one end, Klong Prawet Burirom, to the other end, Klong Saen Saeb.

The spelling thing is a problem. I have always used "klong" although now on official signs and much of the internet it's "khlong". The "Prawet" in Klong Prawet Burirom is spelt "Prawes" as the district and I have used Pravet in the past which is closer to how it sounds. For Klong Phrakanong we could use Phra Khanong, Phrakhanong, Prakhanong and so on.

Sunday's Drive

Drove out to the Royal Thai Navy Museum on Sukhumvit Road as I had never been there. I think we were the only visitors so far that day as they had to turn on some of the lights. A bit run-down but it would still be a boys delight with boat models and guns. We then went to the river ferry piers off Sukhumvit at the Bang Na Road junction. The next stop was at the river end of Klong Phrakhanong where I found a local authority poster with the history of the canal. (It involves opium;-) I will put this up plus all the photos later.

Saturday's Walk

I had to rush out on Saturday afternoon to get a regular walk on my local Klong Ban Ma. It had been busy but I needed the walk as my legs were getting stiff. It takes about 50 minutes. Only new thing on this section was a water gate being built between the lakes on our estate and the canal. I wonder if it's to let water in or out. I will put a photo of this soon.

What We Really Want From Our Police

The police, or more specific the London Met. was what got me started on the army piece yesterday. I had been thinking about how Ken Livingstone will jump in with uncritical support for senior officers in the force when they are in trouble. I would like to sort out what qualities Ken, and we, would hope for in a police force.

In the sixties it was so much easier. We thought the police were an instrument of the authorities and we would be better off getting rid of them. Not that Ken was ever part of the "Kill the Bill" extreme as far as I know. Mind you there was some truth in the left's views. Certain police stations did have large numbers of BNP or National Front members and synthesizers in them. Rumours always had Bexleyheath as one of these. Also both the Met and the City of London police were riddled with corruption down to the point where robberies were being organized by the police.

Of course very few societies, and I guess no large ones, could exist without policing. In a city like London we would have vigilantes if there was no police. So what are the ideal qualities for the police force?

The easy answer is that the force should represent the views and cultural make-up of the population it polices. A cynic would suggest that usually they represent the views and cultural make-up of the authority that pays their wages and controls their promotions. To me the answer is that we need to individual policemen to be liberal with a small "l". An ability to see more than one side to a problem as opposed to a "string them up" attitude.

With the best and brightest of the young officers now being put on a fast-track promotion ladder is this what we get? Has Ken got it right? I suspect that attitudes more than racial make-up of the force is more important. Having said that, it certainly doesn't hurt having more black and asian faces on the force.

The Myth of a Professional Army

I won't get into how this came up in a phone conversation with my mother last night but at least the photo at the bottom ties into the Frank Ryan piece a little. We are all brainwashed by movies and TV to think that a professional army is all SAS and Green Berets, highly efficient and can make minced meat of any third world power. Looking back in history should tell us it ain't necessarily so.


At the start of the Second World War Britain had a professional army and it proved to be no match for the Germans, being driven backwards down to the beaches at Dunkirk. As the volunteers and conscripts joined the army grew not only in size but in ability. I put this down to the lower grade officers and NCOs now no longer being from the professional army, but being from real life.


What I suspect happened is the army changed from being a professional army to a citizens army. I think what comes with that is increase in both intelligence and common sense along with a sense of purpose. My mother told me that first tranche of conscripts were all 21-22 years old and were called the militia.


The picture at the bottom of this piece is of Tom Wintringham, the founder of the Home Guard. He very much preached the idea of a citizens army and probably scared a few of the pro-appeasement Tories with his threats to string them up. He was a leading writer before and during the war on military matters. He was also an ex-communist and ex-leader of the British section of the International Brigade in Spain which is the tie-in with Frank Ryan. When you read the histories of these guys you have to think there could be a good movie in them. Ken Loach, anyone? If you would like to read more about Tom Wintringham there is a good 2004 book by Hugh Purcell called "The Last English Revolutionary - Ton Wintringham 1898-1949".

Now looking back and trying to pick good examples of professional versus citizen armies is interesting. The American War of Independence was certainly a citizens army against the most professional army money could buy, with all the German mercenaries in red coats. Was Cromwell's New Model Army a citizens army? The Israeli Army is certainly organized on a citizens army basis and there seems to be an improvement even at the very top level. Other countries do this as well; Norway and Switzerland are examples.


Should we do it in Britain? I suspect where it doesn't work is when you ask a citizens army to fight in a foreign country that poses no threat to their homeland. I don't think it worked that well for the Americans in Vietnam and I don't think it would work that well for us in Iraq or Afghanistan. A citizens army is basically a defensive army and not suited to an aggressive government intent on using military might to sort out political problems. Probably professional armies do this better.


If we had governments who stayed out of conflicts of the Iraq type, that is a bit like Harold Wilson who would not get involved with the Vietnamese War. Could they convince us that some sort of conscription would be a good thing? I could see ways in which it would bring all the ethnic and religious sections of British youth together for a while. It's no good me saying it though as I never had to suffer conscription, it had already ended by the sixties. Has our professional army officer corps improved that much since the war? I doubt it and suspect we will still get too many public school boys in it.

Tom Wintringham and wife Kitty

A Quick Peep at Klong Saen Saeb

A very quick visit to Klong Saen Saeb today and a walk of less than a kilometer. I hadn't intended going over to this klong anytime soon, but I haven't had a walk for 3 days. I didn't really have that much time today but my legs were feeling stiff and I wanted to get out.

Klong Saen Saeb is the other canal that joins the Chao Phraya and Ban Pakong rivers together. It is older, by about 50 years, busier and bigger than my local Klong Prawet Burirom. I drove along the service road of the Bangkok Ring Road past the area I have been walking and turned left onto Ramkhamhaeng Road heading into town and the Bangkapi shopping area. I stopped at the bridge over a small canal called Klong Ban Ma. To the south there was a footpath which I will walk another day. To the north a path a few hundred meters long as far as the large Klong Saen Saeb.

Klong Ban Ma looking towards Klong Saen Saeb from Ramkhamhaeng Road

At the junction with Klong Saen Saeb I couldn't see any footpaths along the sides towards Bangkapi so there might be no walks in that direction. Behind me there was a path heading east so that will also be another day's walk. There wasn't any traffic on the klong but this might be because I got there in the early afternoon before school and work ended. Next time I will get into the history of this canal a bit.

Klong Saen Saeb looking west towards Bangkapi

Fallen Heroes

The last couple of years, since we had broadband, I have come to depend on the BBC website to get my daily fix of entertainment. For those that haven't used it, you can access a week or more radio broadcasts on demand. An example would be today I enjoyed Radio 7's Sunday broadcast of "The Groucho Letters", with Groucho Marx being as funny in his correspondence as in his movies. What I didn't get to hear was "A Short History of Ireland" in 240 parts as it finished on Friday.


Radio 7 had been repeating this series from, I think an original Radio Ulster program. They cheated a little by putting two of the seven and half minute episodes together so it only took 120 weekdays. It finishes in the 1930s. I was hoping to hear something about Frank Ryan, but although they did have a little on his enemy Eoin O'Duffy they ended just before Ryan really gets well known.


I first run into the name of Frank Ryan while reading about the Spanish Civil War. Ryan was a left-leaning IRA man who joined the fight against Franco, bringing quite a large contingent of men with him. He was a commander in the International Brigade and he was captured by Italian forces and imprisoned in Spain. The bit that caught my eye was that he had been handed over to German Intelligence and died in Germany during the war.


When I first read this I thought he must have been taken to Germany against his will and killed there. I was wrong of course. It was probably his only way out of a Spanish prison, but he did agree to help the Germans in their fight against Britain. He had no love for the British, but he had been fighting fascists both at home and in Spain. Whether by design or by circumstance he never did that much to help the Germans and he died of pleurisy in 1944.


I wonder if he had survived and managed to stay out of the clutches of the British army and get back to the Republic, would he be a hero or a villain? There is good 2004 book by Adrian Hoar called "In Green and Red, The Lives of Frank Ryan" if you would like more than Wikipedia will give you. BTW Eoin O'Duffy was also IRA but confirmed fascist and founded the Blue Shirts in Ireland modeled on the other European fascist movements. He also took a contingent to Spain, but fought on Franco's side.

Frank Ryan on the right next to Ernest Hemingway

Not sure where to go next

I'm not sure where to walk next or where to take this blog. I had thought I would mix what I saw on my walk and what I had been thinking about during it. It has become too much a travelogue of the klongs. I had even been thinking about walking the next big klong to the north.

I guess one of the problems is taking the photos and remembering some of the places meant I didn't have to think of other things. I not very good with bad news nowadays and I have some worries that I build up far bigger than I should.

I think what I will get back to is just walks on the local sections of the klong and a bit more thinking.

Walk to Wat Yang

Did the walk I looked at yesterday when driving up Onnut Road. I parked the truck a fair distance from Klong Prakhanong on Soi (Thai for lane) 17 and walked up to the bridge to get onto the pathway.

From the Soi 17 bridge looking west there are no signs of any more footpaths, see picture below. There might be something between Sukhumvit Road and the river and I hope to get over there soon.

Walked to where the two ladies run the cross-klong ferry service at Wat Yang, it was further than I thought. I couldn't do the last bit between the two temples as there was a low gate on the walkway that looked like it kept some dogs penned in. I didn't bother going the last few hundred meters.

This area seems to be the oldest part I have visited which makes sense as Bangkok would have developed outwards from the river. It seemed Buddhist rather than Moslem so the dog count went up along with their mess. Next to Wat Yang was a very old house that looked original. The small tiles on the roof are not usually seen on other than temples and palaces.

Today's Drive

Drove up the Carrefour supermarket at the western end of Onnut Road. On the way back I stopped at Wat Yang to see how much of this canal I can still walk. It looks like about 1 kilometer on the northern side. Wat Yang is a large temple complex that seems to do a lot of funerals. Unusual was a building with buffalo and cattle saved from the slaughterhouse by people to make merit.

Although there was no pathway on the temple's side of the canal, there were two women running a ferry service across the canal as you can see below. I didn't try it.

Saturday's Drive

Took a break late afternoon and drove down to the eastern end of Klong Prawet Burirom where it joins the Ban Pakong River. This was about 48 kilometers from where I live. Maybe next weekend I will do the western end where it joins the River Chao Phraya. That's 10 kilometers from here. Below is a picture of the Ban Pakong River a little north of where the klong joins it. It was getting late and the light was going.

Looking from the last road bridge to the east where the klong joins the river. On the right side is private land and to left is a factory so there is no access. At the end on the right is a house which must be a fantastic locaation to live.

This the last road bridge to the east of Klong Prawet Burirom.

From the bridge you can see these watergates looking to the west. Google Earth shows another loop of the canal to left with another watergate but you can't see it from here. I might do another trip out this way.

About one kilometer up the river from the klong is a large temple complex. In it is this old temple building. One of the monks said it was more than 100 years old. Until recently temples tended to be more interested in new buildings than keeping old ones standing so this is good.

Thursday's Walk

Almost a regular walk to the temple, Wat Krathum Sueapla, and back but I did deviate it so part was on Onnut Road to make more of a loop. At the top of one of the lanes I took to get to Onnut, Soi 61, was this small temple with both Buddhist and Hindu statues. You can see taking the major spot is Ganesh or Ganesha as Wikipedia has it now.

At Wat Krathum Sueapla they have a pair of tall trees with barriers at their base so I guess these might be krathum trees as in the name of the temple.

This glass and mirrored building in the grounds is outstanding.

This hall is fairly new looking.

Last Wednesday Walk and Drive

Now catching up with the walks on Wednesday and Thursday. Since then it has been Friday off and Saturday and Sunday driving. I will do this day back to front and talk about the drive around the landfill site and Bangkok Metropolitan Authority (BMA) waste collection depot first before the walk I did before it.

The drive into the landfill and BMA depot area is probably unusual unless you are working there. Small scale industry has set up in this area recycling trash coming in. Very little plastic can make it into the landfill as even the plastic bags are washed and dried to be turned into more plastic bags I guess. The small klong, Klong Wat Krathum Sueapla, that goes to the north from the landfill is polluted, being black and smelly. It joins Klong Prawet Burirom next to the temple, Wat Krathum Burirom. The two smoking stacks I had seen earlier in the week were part of the medical waste incinerator. The third stack looks like it's part of an abandoned incinerator. There is no pathway along Klong Song Hong next to the rubbish truck depot so this section can't be walked.

The walk earlier had been from the other side of the Bangkok Ring Road back to where I had started the Klong Song Hong walk previously. I did get the picture of the grocery boat along this walk. The canal's name started as Klong Takhe Khop but it became Klong Song Hong partway along. The blue dots on the map below show the walk. Klong Takhe Khop actually does a right turn to the south at ends just under the road.

Football - Crystal Palace 0-1 Charlton

Yesterday's game was one of the two times this season we will meet our "local" rivals so any win is a good one. Although all the newspapers will use the term local this shows a lack of understanding on how London transportation works. A trip on public transport across South London from Charlton to Crystal Palace is best done by a railway ride into central London and them back out again.

When I left England Palace were not our local rivals as really we didn't know any Palace supporters. Millwall up the road were local but they didn't see us as rivals as they already had a historic one in West Ham. They were the two London dockers teams. Palace considered Brighton on the south coast their main rivals for some reason that I never bothered discovering. It used to be quite embarrassing as nobody thought Charlton were a worthy rival.

That all changed a number of years ago when Charlton, in financial trouble, were forced to share Crystal Palace's ground. The brave souls who made the journey across to continue supporting their team were never made to feel welcome so had no fondness for the Palace. Charlton gave the Palace fans reasons to dislike them two seasons ago by winning in a game that relegated them to the division we both now play in, and cheering while we did it.

Thank god for our minor tribal loyalties. I doubt a Charlton or a Palace fan would send us to war in Iraq, although we might be tempted to us weapons of mass destruction on each other.